Aside from the content of this article and its merits (or problems), that header photo is just excellent. The photographer perfectly captured the visual essence of what it sometimes means to be an illegal migrant.
threeseed [3 hidden]5 mins ago
It's the same situation in most countries.
You need young, cheap labour from somewhere in order to sustain domestic agricultural and manufacturing industries. In the US it comes from people crossing the border, UK it was Schengen migration and in Australia legal immigration via loopholes that were never closed.
And as we've seen in the UK the minute that goes away those businesses fold en masse as either (a) they make themselves uncompetitive to attract domestic workers or (b) they don't and they have no workers at all.
switch007 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
UK was never part of Schengen. Freedom of movement is for all EU citizens not just the Schengen countries
And net migration hit record levels post Brexit.
Dig1t [3 hidden]5 mins ago
So why isn’t this a problem in China, Russia, Korea, Japan, or Taiwan? There are many poor countries with people who would benefit from the increased standard of living in the countries I listed.
Also it’s obvious that many incoming migrants are not from central or South America, there are significant numbers of people coming from Africa and Asia to the US southern border. Is the only way to secure the US southern border to raise the standard of living in every country in the world?
throwup238 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> But one metric stayed virtually static: the number of managers arrested for hiring undocumented immigrants.
This was especially obvious during the last administration* when ICE was raiding businesses left and right to deport people and as far as I know, almost never went after the meat packers and farms and other businesses that knowingly hired the migrant workers. As long as the employers don’t see any penalties or they’re so small as to be the cost of doing business, there will always have a large pool of undocumented immigrants who will replace the ones deported.
I think if they were actually investigated the well would run deep with plenty of employers actively helping their new hires commit fraud to get past their I9 verification. It’s unfortunate that this approach has never been politically viable because I suspect a majority of the population is willing to approach illegal immigration humanely while punishing the actual lawbreakers upstream to address the core economic impacts.
* It was obvious to anyone paying attention during the Bush, Obama, and Biden administrations too but the media focus during Trump’s made it especially stark how little enforcement was going on at the employer level.
next_xibalba [3 hidden]5 mins ago
This just goes to show you how unserious the whole debate is. You start imprisoning employers, and illegal immigration would dry up with quickness. Everyone in power knows it. But they also know doing so would absolute cripple the U.S. economy. Republicans create window dressing in the form of tough talk, raids, and somewhat increased border enforcement. Democrats don't even bother. They just leave the border wide open.
What in god's name will it take to cause politicians to get serious about sensible, economically viable immigration reform? My guess: there would have to be a very significant terrorist attack on U.S. soil in which the perpetrators are shown to have crossed the Southern border illegally without a shadow of a doubt.
jmyeet [3 hidden]5 mins ago
This is actually a decent article but it misses a few things.
People need to understand that undocumented migrants are nothing more than a political football. The article (correctly) points out that nobody really wants to "solve" the problem. I'd go even further and say there is no problem. It's completely made up.
The article points out that if you really wanted to address this (made up) problem, you'd go after the employers. Nobody does that. It has been tried, however. For example, the Alabama agriculture sector collapsed when they tried [1].
Chicken farms are notorious for bad practices. Underpay undocumented migrants. When they start demanding safer working conditions and more pay, you simply call ICE for a sweep, pay a token fine and then start with a new batch.
Undocumented migrants, from the perspective of employers, are about cheap labor and suppressing wages. The easiest solution for this is to document them. We used to do this. It was called the Bracero program [2].
Top of this political theater is the "migrant crime" panic. For example, in a country with >20,000 homicides per year, so far this year 27 of them have been committed by noncitizens [3] and that includes documented and undocumented people.
Construction and agriculture are utterly dependent on undocumented migrant labor.
Is don't know if it's a problem or if it's related but in Los Angeles, the city is covered with illegal food stalls setup on sidewalks. I think that's an issue. For one, it takes customers from the stores they set up in front of.
I'm happy to hear arguments this is unrelated to illegal immagration and is a net positive.
the idea that immigration is always a net positive seems to have been challenged recently
How terrible.. Let's enforce draconian ID checks, destroy families, corral people into human warehousing centers and then aggressively throw them back into the hell they escaped from over the border..... because some Los Angeles residents (and residents of other cities) cant stand the site of a food stall on their otherwise "perfectly clean" streets.
If those food stalls weren't offering an attractive service at a good price, they wouldn't be stealing customers from anyone anyhow. The restaurant owners aren't owed an income and customers aren't a product to be "taken away" or given. They make their own choices that others decide to serve in this context.
Among all the arguments against illegal or legal immigrants, this has got to be one of the more pedantic and absurd examples.
wbl [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Nobody is entitled to customers
s1artibartfast [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Sure, but you are entitled to equal application of the law protection from competition blatantly flaunting the law.
shiroiushi [3 hidden]5 mins ago
>Top of this political theater is the "migrant crime" panic. For example, in a country with >20,000 homicides per year, so far this year 27 of them have been committed by noncitizens [3] and that includes documented and undocumented people.
Illegal immigrants would have to be really stupid to commit crimes; after all, they jumped through huge hoops just to get into the country, so of course they're going to keep a low profile.
What I'm curious about, however, is how many crimes are committed by their kids? One thing I've noticed about immigrants in many countries is that, while the actual immigrants (the "first generation") went through hell to immigrate (illegally or legally), and generally are extremely hard-working and want a new life, their kids aren't the same. The kids didn't grow up in the old country and don't know what it's like there, and don't understand their parents' sacrifice. But in the new country, they frequently don't fit into the society (particular if they come from an extremely different culture and ethnic background), and then this can lead to big problems later, like joining criminal gangs.
Onavo [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> People need to understand that undocumented migrants are nothing more than a political football. The article (correctly) points out that nobody really wants to "solve" the problem. I'd go even further and say there is no problem. It's completely made up.
For the American political class, nobody really cares about the immigrants except to make sure they don't get too uppity. Perpetuating an underclass is the entire point. If they truly cared, they would issue easy to get short term work visas like the Gulf states. This is the legacy of the Monroe doctrine, the Hispanic countries are basically taken for granted as a cheap labor pool given that no other country will try to uplift them and their general corruption and crime are tolerated by the US so long as they don't go full Cuba.
parineum [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> in a country with >20,000 homicides per year, so far this year 27 of them have been committed by noncitizens
Two thoughts on this. First, you appear to be comparing all homicides to homicide convictions. I'm not sure what the national conviction rate is but it brings that number down.
Second, if those unsolved murders, I would suspect that illegal aliens would represent a disproportionate number, given that they are more difficult to find and can easily return home to escape conviction.
Even accounting for that though, it's still a relatively small amount in total but I have no idea what those rates would be like proportionately.
dmoy [3 hidden]5 mins ago
> I'm not sure what the national conviction rate is but it brings that number down.
It's like 25% for homicide
adgjlsfhk1 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
almost no illegal immigrants can easily return "home".
To have an honest debate about immigration, we need to admit two things: First, that the issue is global and is affecting most developed nations. Second, that the primary concern is demographic change, not the economics of immigration.
This demographic change is the primary reasons for the "populist uprising" of Brexit, Trump and the recent victories of right-wing parties in Europe and, in my opinion, will likely provoke a civil war in at least one Western country in the near future.
Demographics arguably determine the future of nations, and we have been under this bizarre delusion the last few decades that it was no big deal that mass migration was causing demographics of many nations to radically change.
smb06 [3 hidden]5 mins ago
Agree with the premise. If you want to stem immigration, you have to help potential immigrants where their original home and roots are.
HN.zip
You need young, cheap labour from somewhere in order to sustain domestic agricultural and manufacturing industries. In the US it comes from people crossing the border, UK it was Schengen migration and in Australia legal immigration via loopholes that were never closed.
And as we've seen in the UK the minute that goes away those businesses fold en masse as either (a) they make themselves uncompetitive to attract domestic workers or (b) they don't and they have no workers at all.
And net migration hit record levels post Brexit.
Also it’s obvious that many incoming migrants are not from central or South America, there are significant numbers of people coming from Africa and Asia to the US southern border. Is the only way to secure the US southern border to raise the standard of living in every country in the world?
This was especially obvious during the last administration* when ICE was raiding businesses left and right to deport people and as far as I know, almost never went after the meat packers and farms and other businesses that knowingly hired the migrant workers. As long as the employers don’t see any penalties or they’re so small as to be the cost of doing business, there will always have a large pool of undocumented immigrants who will replace the ones deported.
I think if they were actually investigated the well would run deep with plenty of employers actively helping their new hires commit fraud to get past their I9 verification. It’s unfortunate that this approach has never been politically viable because I suspect a majority of the population is willing to approach illegal immigration humanely while punishing the actual lawbreakers upstream to address the core economic impacts.
* It was obvious to anyone paying attention during the Bush, Obama, and Biden administrations too but the media focus during Trump’s made it especially stark how little enforcement was going on at the employer level.
What in god's name will it take to cause politicians to get serious about sensible, economically viable immigration reform? My guess: there would have to be a very significant terrorist attack on U.S. soil in which the perpetrators are shown to have crossed the Southern border illegally without a shadow of a doubt.
People need to understand that undocumented migrants are nothing more than a political football. The article (correctly) points out that nobody really wants to "solve" the problem. I'd go even further and say there is no problem. It's completely made up.
The article points out that if you really wanted to address this (made up) problem, you'd go after the employers. Nobody does that. It has been tried, however. For example, the Alabama agriculture sector collapsed when they tried [1].
Chicken farms are notorious for bad practices. Underpay undocumented migrants. When they start demanding safer working conditions and more pay, you simply call ICE for a sweep, pay a token fine and then start with a new batch.
Undocumented migrants, from the perspective of employers, are about cheap labor and suppressing wages. The easiest solution for this is to document them. We used to do this. It was called the Bracero program [2].
Top of this political theater is the "migrant crime" panic. For example, in a country with >20,000 homicides per year, so far this year 27 of them have been committed by noncitizens [3] and that includes documented and undocumented people.
Construction and agriculture are utterly dependent on undocumented migrant labor.
[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/14/alabama-immigr...
[2]: https://guides.loc.gov/latinx-civil-rights/bracero-program
[3]: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistic...
I'm happy to hear arguments this is unrelated to illegal immagration and is a net positive.
the idea that immigration is always a net positive seems to have been challenged recently
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/trump-clinto...
If those food stalls weren't offering an attractive service at a good price, they wouldn't be stealing customers from anyone anyhow. The restaurant owners aren't owed an income and customers aren't a product to be "taken away" or given. They make their own choices that others decide to serve in this context.
Among all the arguments against illegal or legal immigrants, this has got to be one of the more pedantic and absurd examples.
Illegal immigrants would have to be really stupid to commit crimes; after all, they jumped through huge hoops just to get into the country, so of course they're going to keep a low profile.
What I'm curious about, however, is how many crimes are committed by their kids? One thing I've noticed about immigrants in many countries is that, while the actual immigrants (the "first generation") went through hell to immigrate (illegally or legally), and generally are extremely hard-working and want a new life, their kids aren't the same. The kids didn't grow up in the old country and don't know what it's like there, and don't understand their parents' sacrifice. But in the new country, they frequently don't fit into the society (particular if they come from an extremely different culture and ethnic background), and then this can lead to big problems later, like joining criminal gangs.
For the American political class, nobody really cares about the immigrants except to make sure they don't get too uppity. Perpetuating an underclass is the entire point. If they truly cared, they would issue easy to get short term work visas like the Gulf states. This is the legacy of the Monroe doctrine, the Hispanic countries are basically taken for granted as a cheap labor pool given that no other country will try to uplift them and their general corruption and crime are tolerated by the US so long as they don't go full Cuba.
Two thoughts on this. First, you appear to be comparing all homicides to homicide convictions. I'm not sure what the national conviction rate is but it brings that number down.
Second, if those unsolved murders, I would suspect that illegal aliens would represent a disproportionate number, given that they are more difficult to find and can easily return home to escape conviction.
Even accounting for that though, it's still a relatively small amount in total but I have no idea what those rates would be like proportionately.
It's like 25% for homicide
This demographic change is the primary reasons for the "populist uprising" of Brexit, Trump and the recent victories of right-wing parties in Europe and, in my opinion, will likely provoke a civil war in at least one Western country in the near future.
Demographics arguably determine the future of nations, and we have been under this bizarre delusion the last few decades that it was no big deal that mass migration was causing demographics of many nations to radically change.